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| Maxane |
Posted on 20-01-23, 19:35
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 Post: #2 of 11 Since: 01-21-20 Last post: 1573 days Last view: 1175 days |
For those who don't know me, I'm Maxane, a nobody on byuu's discord server and on some other emulation discord servers, but that's not important. I'm currently looking for idea's on creating Doom maps, I really want to be productive for once and this is my chance at being productive. The idea's can be used a a full Doom map or as a part of a Doom map. The idea's can be anything, but remember that I'm limiting to Doom 2 limits and just starting out. So I ask you to please be easy on this. I will also take any advice from those who have experience with mapping before. When the map is finished, it will be released and I'l go take care of making a secon one. My current plan is to make 9 maps They do come out really rough in my opinion, but I want to learn making maps for Doom, so this is my chance of doing it. I'l check on this thread back when there's some idea's or advice I can take. As of currently, I already started a map with the beginning area that looks like a cat (only the head and body). Another Dude in Green. |
| Screwtape |
Posted on 20-01-24, 00:20
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 Post: #384 of 443 Since: 10-30-18 Last post: 1111 days Last view: 182 days |
My first advice would be: what effect do you want to have on the player? Do you want to make them feel like a badass Hollywood action hero, gunning down demons at a full sprint? Do you want to make them feel weak and helpless, scurrying down dim corridors and trying to avoid confrontation? Do you want them to be explorers through strange realms, where just finding the level exit, or figuring out how to get to it, is an achievement in itself? The ending of the words is ALMSIVI. |
| CaptainJistuce |
Posted on 20-01-24, 01:43
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Custom title here
 Post: #822 of 1164 Since: 10-30-18 Last post: 73 days Last view: 21 hours |
Or do you just want to give them a BFG and a lot of targets to kill with it? --- In UTF-16, where available. --- |
| Screwtape |
Posted on 20-01-24, 06:35
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Post: #387 of 443 Since: 10-30-18 Last post: 1111 days Last view: 182 days |
I remember having lots of fun once I read the BFG FAQ and discovered that the glowy green ball is not the primary method of dealing damage. Instead, it works like this: 1. The player fires the BFG in direction D, and a big glowy green ball emerges and slowly travels in that direction. 2. When the ball hits an obstacle, it explodes. 3. When the ball explodes, the gun fires a bunch of hitscan projectiles from WHEREVER THE PLAYER IS STANDING. 4. The hitscan projectiles are fired in a random cone around D, REGARDLESS OF WHERE THE PLAYER IS FACING. So the trick is to find a long hallway beside a room with a lot of dog-fighting. Let's say you stand at the northern end of a long hallway, and fire the gun southward. You now have until the ball explodes to reposition yourself to the northern end of the room with the fighting in it. If you time it just right, you can sprint past and clear a room without even the courtesy of having to stop and aim. The ending of the words is ALMSIVI. |
| CaptainJistuce |
Posted on 20-01-24, 09:48
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Custom title here
Post: #826 of 1164 Since: 10-30-18 Last post: 73 days Last view: 21 hours |
Posted by Screwtape Yeah, the BFG FAQ exposed the weapon code as ... kind of insane. Apparently they originally wanted basically an overpowered plasma shotgun, but systems of the day couldn't render the effect without choking gameplay to an absolute crawl. I'd wager the shipping code was an attempt to create a "room-clearing explosion" without the attendant player risk of an explosion that could clear out that much space. And then people stopped watching their projectiles hit targets and everything went wrong. (A lot of Doom code assumes modern FPS tactics don't exist, for understandable reasons. Sidestepping makes at least one boss almost completely unable to hit you.) --- In UTF-16, where available. --- |
| Maxane |
Posted on 20-01-25, 11:04
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Post: #3 of 11 Since: 01-21-20 Last post: 1573 days Last view: 1175 days |
I found out about it when it was shown in a youtube video, which was this one I believe. This channel has like way more info on the topics regarding technical stuff in Doom like the BFG vid above (besides 100% walktroughs). Anyway, thanks for the advice you guys have been giving to me about map making philosiphy. I mainly gonna aim for the "you feeling badass" style of maps, but they need to feel that they did it. I don't want to randomaly place a BFG somewhere without having something to shoot at with the BFG. One example I could give is that when you get a Rocket Launcher, one or two Hell Knights or Barons of Hell will spawn in close to the exit (Will depend on difficulty). A weapon isn't a reward if you don't have a chance to use it effectively. That's what I kinda hate with the Rocket Launcher secret at Doom 2 MAP 1. It doesn't throw you something at you if you want to use the Rocket Launcher. Maybe the Imps guarding the shotgun outside, but that's it. Then again, I shouldn't discourage players from finding those secrets, so I could prolly balance it out with Medpacks to make up for it. One other thing I can consider is having the exits share a same theme (with Doom EP1 using a small exit sign and SIGIL using the Icon of Sin logo to walk into). I do feel the exit needs to have a bigger presence in my maps so players know when to see an exit, giving them a sign of relief. Of course, I can also play with the expectations of the player and having suprises at the exit, but I'l have to balance it so I will only use it at the later maps or something. I could implement one at the 4th map for example, but not in the 5th map to kill the sign of relief. I could share more on my ideas, but I would keep them a secret. I really don't want to spoil maps by explaining all my ideas I have so far, but I will definitely listen to future ideas and I will keep watching this thread. Another Dude in Green. |
| Nicholas Steel |
Posted on 20-01-25, 11:36 (revision 8)
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Post: #334 of 426
Since: 10-30-18 Last post: 508 days Last view: 23 days |
Posted by Maxane The games consist of campaigns where you carry stuff from one level to the next, just because you found a Rocket Launcher in the first level of Doom 2 it doesn't mean your supposed to use it right away (that's a waste!). Also sometimes secrets are simply supposed to make you feel bad ass as the reward for finding the secret, being able to easily mow down some Imps with a Rocket Launcher is a nice way to make the player feel good after spending time hunting down that secret but a smarter player will conserve the item for a later more difficult section in the campaign. Quake handled the "time to feel like a bad ass after discovering a secret" element a little different with the temporary Quad Damage item that's instantly consumed when collected. It allowed them to focus content around the discovery of such things without worrying too much about the player being able to conserve its effects and cheapening other parts of a level. Quad Damage also lets you use the weapon of your choice (out of the ones in your possession) for any given situation. AMD Ryzen 3700X | MSI Gamer Geforce 1070Ti 8GB | 16GB 3600MHz DDR4 RAM | ASUS Crosshair VIII Hero (WiFi) Motherboard | Windows 10 x64 |
| Screwtape |
Posted on 20-01-25, 13:46
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Post: #388 of 443 Since: 10-30-18 Last post: 1111 days Last view: 182 days |
Posted by Maxane So the thing about Doom 2 MAP01 is that it was right at the dawn of multiplayer FPS games, and for whatever reason (time constraints? lack of inventiveness?) Doom 2 didn't have any dedicated multiplayer maps, or even a way to queue up a playlist of maps - when you started a new deathmatch game, it just dumped you in MAP01 like a singleplayer or co-op game. And so while MAP01 had to function as a simple, straight-forward tutorial level for people playing the single-player campaign, it also had to function as a multiplayer map - so it has more weapons than a tutorial map really should, it puts high-value items like the plasma rifle in a wide-open place to prevent camping, etc. etc. The ending of the words is ALMSIVI. |
| Maxane |
Posted on 20-01-26, 12:10 (revision 1)
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Post: #4 of 11 Since: 01-21-20 Last post: 1573 days Last view: 1175 days |
Posted by Nicolas Steel To be fair, The weapons can be taken to the next level, but I feel that the better way to use the Rocket Launcher for is in MAP 04 and maybe MAP 03 where you have more groups of enemies. but I don't think it's fun to hold a powerful weapon for like 2 maps until there's a good point to use it. I think it's more fun for the player that if they have found a nice of weaponry, they want to use that weaponry. Also, if you didn't know, if you technically die in the older Doom games, you restart the level with only the pistol. Of course, the smart player saves just before the level and reloads it when he/she dies (or use a source port that does it all for you). Now, I'm designing the maps with the tought in mind that they already have (Ultimate) Doom and Doom 2, so I'm not gonna make a level on how to teach you to play Doom, but I do want the maps being run in Vanilla Doom (using Chocolate Doom for testing maps due to this) and some players keep that mentality of "if you die, you lose the weapons and try again". Which is why you might see duplicate weapons in Doom Episodes or Doom 2 sometimes. Regarding the Quad Damage, I think the instant use of QD encourages the players to use it yeah, but what point is it for the QD to exist when there's not enough enemies to frag. The player has to gain excitement with using the QD. So if there's a room of a lot of enemies, but he has either a Nailgun (or S.Nailgun) or a Grenade or Rocket Launcher and he sees the QD, then that QD becomes his first priority. Now, if there's like just one enemy in the room, then that QD isn't important anymore. Also, since Quake 2 lets you hoard powerups, I have used the QD much less in that game. I never think about when to use the QD in that game, since I either never felt to use it or I just forgot that I have QD. Kinda like that 200 potions you create in Skyrim and then never using them. This is kinda why I prefer Q1's approach, since it encourages you to have fun with it and go away, but only if the maps allows for it. This is why I want to make sure that there's gonna be an opportunity to use a special weapon in Doom, instead of encouraging to hoard it. Using the weapon is much more fun than holding it out for a few maps. Posted by ScrewtapeI think that's a valid argument there of having the RL in the map, but as an MP map, I don't think I have enough time to stay alive to pull the secret, but then again, I didn't play Deathmatch back then since I'm not even born yet back then. One good example of a good weapon placement would be the Super Shotgun in Map02. You first start in a room with not much enemies. Then as you progress, you find a room with an larger amount of "Former Humans" seemingly to guard the powerful S.Shotgun. Once you got this weapon and use it, it can kill a big amount of weak enemies in a wide area in one shot. When you go out of the room and then go left, you see a bigger amount enemies that you don't normally see in the previous Doom. What's the awnser at this stage? THE SUPER SHOTGUN!!!!!. This makes the introduction to the S.Shotgun well known and leaves a bigger impression to the player than the Rocket Launcher in MAP01. Even better, MAP03 also starts with big amounts of enemies and the Chaingunner, which you can get in one well placed S.Shotgun shot (heck, in the case of the chaingunner, a well-placed normal shotgun shot even). I tend to use the Super Shotgun more times than the Rocket Launcher in Doom 2, since I know that ammo in plentyful and I know that the Super Shotgun is really good compared to the Rocket Launcher which still says "Keep me till you're against bigger enemies" while the Super Shotgun already proved himself that he's chad against anyone since he made a better impression. Another Dude in Green. |
| Maxane |
Posted on 20-01-26, 12:29 (revision 2)
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Post: #5 of 11 Since: 01-21-20 Last post: 1573 days Last view: 1175 days |
This just inspired me to modify MAP01 to make it a more DM friendly match. Right now, I see some parts of the map that could be changed to make it more DM friendly like opening the courtyard at the chainsaw secret and linking that courtyard to the shotgun room. Heck, maybe even linking the 2 courtyards together. I could do this after I made the first 9 Maps, but the idea's now struck in my head. Another Dude in Green. |
| Nicholas Steel |
Posted on 20-01-27, 06:24
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Post: #336 of 426
Since: 10-30-18 Last post: 508 days Last view: 23 days |
Didn't they already do that in Ultimate Doom? AMD Ryzen 3700X | MSI Gamer Geforce 1070Ti 8GB | 16GB 3600MHz DDR4 RAM | ASUS Crosshair VIII Hero (WiFi) Motherboard | Windows 10 x64 |
| Screwtape |
Posted on 20-01-27, 06:41
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Post: #389 of 443 Since: 10-30-18 Last post: 1111 days Last view: 182 days |
I once played a version of MAP01 modified for deathmatch friendliness. I spent some time looking it up, and it seems it was in a megawad called http://members.xoom.com/BarrieM/horizon.htm">Horizon for Legacy, specially designed to show off the features of the Doom Legacy source-port, like eight-player deathmatch and the ability to jump low walls. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to play in Chocolate Doom, and while apparently (G)ZDoom supports Legacy's extensions, those aren't available in Debian. Just for kicks, I built the latest version of Doom Legacy and took some screenshots: https://imgur.com/a/Bx7I5S7 The ending of the words is ALMSIVI. |
| Maxane |
Posted on 20-01-27, 20:36
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Post: #6 of 11 Since: 01-21-20 Last post: 1573 days Last view: 1175 days |
It's interesting to look at that attempt of making MAP01 DM-friendly, which is interesting. That said, I want it to be a bit closer to the original aestetic. The water flooded room is a bit overkill for me. Since it also got its roots in the Doom Legacy source-port, it will be nice if it works on more places reliably without hitting the limits. One thing I do need to look out for is the battle space, I believe not everything has to change for DM use. Another Dude in Green. |
| Screwtape |
Posted on 20-01-28, 04:00
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Post: #390 of 443 Since: 10-30-18 Last post: 1111 days Last view: 182 days |
As I was walking around the flooded area, the game played splashing noises all the time. I wondered if maybe that was intended as an auditory cue - you're always going to hear gunfire in a deathmatch game, but if there's one flooded room and you hear a lot of splashing, you know where the party's at. If you *don't* hear a lot of splashing, you know where the party *isn't*, and that can help narrow down the search. The ending of the words is ALMSIVI. |
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